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	<title>Comments on: We need to stop this</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/</link>
	<description>Leslie Burns-Dell'Acqua writes on the photo business and marketing</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Bruce DeBoer</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12821</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce DeBoer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2007 04:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12821</guid>
		<description>KC - I agree with you.

I've been hearing that we must band together since I started in the business in 1980.  I agree, but ultimately it's what the market will bear.

Big buyers have clout, they always have had it - always will.  Our job: do what we can to educate our profession, and then prove that we are worth what we say we are worth.  

Today I was asked to do an editorial job for $850.  Not unusual until you read their contract which said they had the right to use the photos for ever, and for whatever.  How many of you would have shot for this client?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KC - I agree with you.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been hearing that we must band together since I started in the business in 1980.  I agree, but ultimately it&#8217;s what the market will bear.</p>
<p>Big buyers have clout, they always have had it - always will.  Our job: do what we can to educate our profession, and then prove that we are worth what we say we are worth.  </p>
<p>Today I was asked to do an editorial job for $850.  Not unusual until you read their contract which said they had the right to use the photos for ever, and for whatever.  How many of you would have shot for this client?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Saxman</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12465</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Saxman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2007 19:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12465</guid>
		<description>I can only suppose CN provides their clients with total control over and ownership of these ads and allows them to be used elsewhere besides their own pages...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can only suppose CN provides their clients with total control over and ownership of these ads and allows them to be used elsewhere besides their own pages&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brooks</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12431</link>
		<dc:creator>Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12431</guid>
		<description>Sometimes it helps to actually read the original post before commenting on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes it helps to actually read the original post before commenting on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Gatz</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12417</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Gatz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2007 15:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12417</guid>
		<description>Sorry to have to disagree, but what exactly are you thinking to stop?  As someone else has stated printers, billboard and magazine companies have been providing this service for years.   The primary users of this service has traditionally been smaller advertisers in local markets without the guidence of advertising agencies.  This is then a very good service for them and the price is right.

I didn't see any mention that photographers were being asked to shoot for free...not that I would be surprised, nor would I be surprised to hear some photographers line up for the chance...remember OnRequest?

If APA wants to impact this concept, forget the magazine design departments...try reaching our photo brothers and sisters to explain the situation on photographer sites.  People need to have the tools to defend their rates as appropriate and correct, inline with use.

What the ad agencies, graphic designers, billboard companies or magazines make the business decision to give away is of no concern of ours...as long as they are not also giving away our photo licenses. If photographers have produced images for these enities and signed away rights...then they deserve to have their images used without compensation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to have to disagree, but what exactly are you thinking to stop?  As someone else has stated printers, billboard and magazine companies have been providing this service for years.   The primary users of this service has traditionally been smaller advertisers in local markets without the guidence of advertising agencies.  This is then a very good service for them and the price is right.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t see any mention that photographers were being asked to shoot for free&#8230;not that I would be surprised, nor would I be surprised to hear some photographers line up for the chance&#8230;remember OnRequest?</p>
<p>If APA wants to impact this concept, forget the magazine design departments&#8230;try reaching our photo brothers and sisters to explain the situation on photographer sites.  People need to have the tools to defend their rates as appropriate and correct, inline with use.</p>
<p>What the ad agencies, graphic designers, billboard companies or magazines make the business decision to give away is of no concern of ours&#8230;as long as they are not also giving away our photo licenses. If photographers have produced images for these enities and signed away rights&#8230;then they deserve to have their images used without compensation.</p>
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		<title>By: KC Ramsay</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12303</link>
		<dc:creator>KC Ramsay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jun 2007 03:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12303</guid>
		<description>With apologies in advance for the gender specific nature of these quotations...

From John Ruskin (19th century): "The is hardly anything in the world that one man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price alone is this mans lawful prey."

From Marshall Field explaining why he was re-opening his downtown department store after the great Chicago fire and the subsequent rush of merchants to the suburbs: "When a man has a choice about where to spend his money he will invariably return to that place where he is intentionally and consistently made to feel special."

There will always be a section of the marketplace avaiable to us if we approach it with an abundance mentality. When we believe there is not enough (a scarcity mentality), and that "no one" wants quality "any more" we cut quality, prices, each others throats, and then our own. Having spent my first career in another part of the creative enterprise, be assured we as photographers are not alone. The sky is not falling, and (not but) we may have to move away from that particular tree (or client, or client group) to keep from getting hit on the head by the next acorn.

United we stand...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With apologies in advance for the gender specific nature of these quotations&#8230;</p>
<p>From John Ruskin (19th century): &#8220;The is hardly anything in the world that one man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price alone is this mans lawful prey.&#8221;</p>
<p>From Marshall Field explaining why he was re-opening his downtown department store after the great Chicago fire and the subsequent rush of merchants to the suburbs: &#8220;When a man has a choice about where to spend his money he will invariably return to that place where he is intentionally and consistently made to feel special.&#8221;</p>
<p>There will always be a section of the marketplace avaiable to us if we approach it with an abundance mentality. When we believe there is not enough (a scarcity mentality), and that &#8220;no one&#8221; wants quality &#8220;any more&#8221; we cut quality, prices, each others throats, and then our own. Having spent my first career in another part of the creative enterprise, be assured we as photographers are not alone. The sky is not falling, and (not but) we may have to move away from that particular tree (or client, or client group) to keep from getting hit on the head by the next acorn.</p>
<p>United we stand&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sherrlyn Borkgren</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12231</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherrlyn Borkgren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12231</guid>
		<description>One hundred percent here. Just what is this business coming to? Thanks for getting on this immediately. Sherrlyn  Borkgren</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One hundred percent here. Just what is this business coming to? Thanks for getting on this immediately. Sherrlyn  Borkgren</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12228</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12228</guid>
		<description>I am on board as well.

Actually I was on board with boycotting CN back in Feb when PDN did an article on the start up of the magazine.  PDN asked where and how photographers should submit images.  The editor said something to the effect  that they didn't have a big budget for images so most would be shot by in house photographers while the rest would be gotten as cheaply as possible.

Not an exact quote**

-Ed
http://photobusinesseducation.wordpress.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am on board as well.</p>
<p>Actually I was on board with boycotting CN back in Feb when PDN did an article on the start up of the magazine.  PDN asked where and how photographers should submit images.  The editor said something to the effect  that they didn&#8217;t have a big budget for images so most would be shot by in house photographers while the rest would be gotten as cheaply as possible.</p>
<p>Not an exact quote**</p>
<p>-Ed<br />
<a href="http://photobusinesseducation.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">http://photobusinesseducation.wordpress.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jack Foley</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12214</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Foley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12214</guid>
		<description>I am in Boston and the advertising market here is pretty dismal. However, if the talented photographers keep giving away their work to companies just for the asking you are shooting yourself in the foot. If you have a talent to sell then you should be paid for it and these hugh companies, like conde nast, shouldn't be making money off your hard work, but more importantly, off your creative thought. If they could do the shooting as well as we can you bet they would be doing it. We create the content, we should control the rights to it!!!

When someone tells me that the printer, or the magazine will do the design for them, or they have someone 'in house' handling that, I ask them if the would let their general contractor design the interior of their home. Most say no.

Starving is bad, granted, but giving away your ideas will always be worse!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in Boston and the advertising market here is pretty dismal. However, if the talented photographers keep giving away their work to companies just for the asking you are shooting yourself in the foot. If you have a talent to sell then you should be paid for it and these hugh companies, like conde nast, shouldn&#8217;t be making money off your hard work, but more importantly, off your creative thought. If they could do the shooting as well as we can you bet they would be doing it. We create the content, we should control the rights to it!!!</p>
<p>When someone tells me that the printer, or the magazine will do the design for them, or they have someone &#8216;in house&#8217; handling that, I ask them if the would let their general contractor design the interior of their home. Most say no.</p>
<p>Starving is bad, granted, but giving away your ideas will always be worse!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Jorge Parra</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12207</link>
		<dc:creator>Jorge Parra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12207</guid>
		<description>I have seen many horror stories involving art directors, graphic designers and the like offering lots of free things, either to retain a client or because they are told to act like that while being employees to some big name.
Recently I found the most dreaded combo: a graphic designer who also takes photographs on the side. He was calling from Atlanta to "help me" geting in the market by shooting a campaign for FEdEx  in a typical buyout scheme. He insisted that I was going to loose big time if I did not take it, and if photographers kept complaining about rights grabbing, he would shoot  the photos , even for free in necessary, knowing how much work he was gonna get in the long term. I decided to lose this "opportunity" not without telling the guy what a great harm he does to our industry.

Fear is the driving force to this situation. Photographers how feared loosing income accepted weird terms and now Conde Nast can re-sell their work to third parties with no extra income to the creators. Free lance Graphic designers fear of loosing accounts or their employers force them into these situations and don't have the guts to stay put. It's fear all over the place.

THis is not new, just more people are doing it visibly.

Jorge Parra</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have seen many horror stories involving art directors, graphic designers and the like offering lots of free things, either to retain a client or because they are told to act like that while being employees to some big name.<br />
Recently I found the most dreaded combo: a graphic designer who also takes photographs on the side. He was calling from Atlanta to &#8220;help me&#8221; geting in the market by shooting a campaign for FEdEx  in a typical buyout scheme. He insisted that I was going to loose big time if I did not take it, and if photographers kept complaining about rights grabbing, he would shoot  the photos , even for free in necessary, knowing how much work he was gonna get in the long term. I decided to lose this &#8220;opportunity&#8221; not without telling the guy what a great harm he does to our industry.</p>
<p>Fear is the driving force to this situation. Photographers how feared loosing income accepted weird terms and now Conde Nast can re-sell their work to third parties with no extra income to the creators. Free lance Graphic designers fear of loosing accounts or their employers force them into these situations and don&#8217;t have the guts to stay put. It&#8217;s fear all over the place.</p>
<p>THis is not new, just more people are doing it visibly.</p>
<p>Jorge Parra</p>
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		<title>By: Giulio Sciorio</title>
		<link>http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12202</link>
		<dc:creator>Giulio Sciorio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/06/04/we-need-to-stop-this/#comment-12202</guid>
		<description>I stopped doing work because "you'll get a great tear for you book!" a while ago. Its sad that such a large company would do this. One that we would expect to be of the most expensive. However I feel in the long run our clients will realize that cheap is expensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stopped doing work because &#8220;you&#8217;ll get a great tear for you book!&#8221; a while ago. Its sad that such a large company would do this. One that we would expect to be of the most expensive. However I feel in the long run our clients will realize that cheap is expensive.</p>
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