Comments on: Standardized prices http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/ Leslie Burns-Dell'Acqua writes on the photo business and marketing Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:51:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Oswald Bates http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-33292 Oswald Bates Mon, 12 May 2008 00:51:21 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-33292 Editorial is based simply on standard placement charges. Have fees for placement gone up? I think if clients start getting the idea that numbers are fixed then they will stay that way. Why would an agency not want to work with a photographer who has a reasonable day rate but comes in under the actual placement fee? They get the difference and then mark that up, right? Do clients know for sure what they have actually paid to the photographer thru the agency? I see no incentive what so ever from an agency owner's point of view to give away such a dynamic center of potential profit. What do they pay the art buyers for? Do their jobs. Good luck with this one. The money left on the table is invisible to many and it's not the ad agencies who don't see it sitting there. Editorial is based simply on standard placement charges. Have fees for placement gone up? I think if clients start getting the idea that numbers are fixed then they will stay that way. Why would an agency not want to work with a photographer who has a reasonable day rate but comes in under the actual placement fee? They get the difference and then mark that up, right? Do clients know for sure what they have actually paid to the photographer thru the agency? I see no incentive what so ever from an agency owner’s point of view to give away such a dynamic center of potential profit. What do they pay the art buyers for? Do their jobs. Good luck with this one. The money left on the table is invisible to many and it’s not the ad agencies who don’t see it sitting there.

]]> By: Jennifer http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32716 Jennifer Fri, 02 May 2008 22:49:49 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32716 I'm thinking the people over at PLUS need to be brought into this discussion... I’m thinking the people over at PLUS need to be brought into this discussion…

]]> By: Bruce DeBoer http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32563 Bruce DeBoer Thu, 01 May 2008 03:03:57 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32563 Leslie - I've heard this one many times and each time I had the same reaction: "hmmmm, I'd love to sit on a panel to discuss the ups and downs, in and outs on this one. It sounds pretty good to me but I'd like to know more. WHat will the magazines think about this, will it hurt or help? How do art buyers think it will work? What would be the penelties for clients or photographers who don't follow the standards? Ya know - questions like that. My knee jerk reaction says that it could be a really good thing but let's find all the hidden curves. As it stands now, I try my best to make the use rights as transparent as possible for my clients. I keep it consistent with rules and prices and choices. THe creative fee fluctuates as a function of time and value added.. Let's get a panel together. Leslie - I’ve heard this one many times and each time I had the same reaction: “hmmmm, I’d love to sit on a panel to discuss the ups and downs, in and outs on this one. It sounds pretty good to me but I’d like to know more.

WHat will the magazines think about this, will it hurt or help?
How do art buyers think it will work?
What would be the penelties for clients or photographers who don’t follow the standards?

Ya know - questions like that.

My knee jerk reaction says that it could be a really good thing but let’s find all the hidden curves.

As it stands now, I try my best to make the use rights as transparent as possible for my clients. I keep it consistent with rules and prices and choices. THe creative fee fluctuates as a function of time and value added.. Let’s get a panel together.

]]> By: CR http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32554 CR Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:00:05 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32554 Leslie - great idea! I'm not sure of the collaborative effort on this though since I'm sure the opinions are going to be all over the place. But I think it's an interesting starter dialog for everyone out there. I wrote about your post on my blog as well, with a link of course. I think there are so many different usage scenarios out there to try and piece together a fair standard price for. It reminds me of stock photo usage (somewhat) - commonly used at Getty, although sometimes the pricing on stock is so high (which sometimes helps my argument to shoot original work). I'd love to see what people say and think on this. Thanks for a great topic. Leslie - great idea! I’m not sure of the collaborative effort on this though since I’m sure the opinions are going to be all over the place. But I think it’s an interesting starter dialog for everyone out there. I wrote about your post on my blog as well, with a link of course. I think there are so many different usage scenarios out there to try and piece together a fair standard price for. It reminds me of stock photo usage (somewhat) - commonly used at Getty, although sometimes the pricing on stock is so high (which sometimes helps my argument to shoot original work). I’d love to see what people say and think on this.
Thanks for a great topic.

]]> By: info http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32545 info Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:23:25 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32545 The problem with applications like FotoQuote is that they are based on surveyed data (who knows what level of photographer is responding to the survey) and the numbers are generally much lower than I think they should be. For example, look at billboard rates and look at how much the placement costs for that media--the usage prices are too low. Same for HindsightLTD's Price Guide. Are they better than nothing? Yeah, I guess, but they shouldn't be looked at as a standardized system as that would be shooting yourselves in the foot. -Leslie The problem with applications like FotoQuote is that they are based on surveyed data (who knows what level of photographer is responding to the survey) and the numbers are generally much lower than I think they should be. For example, look at billboard rates and look at how much the placement costs for that media–the usage prices are too low. Same for HindsightLTD’s Price Guide. Are they better than nothing? Yeah, I guess, but they shouldn’t be looked at as a standardized system as that would be shooting yourselves in the foot. -Leslie

]]> By: Tony Blei http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32544 Tony Blei Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:18:58 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32544 I love FotoQuote and FotoBiz because they have a range of prices for each use. It's cool that on PhotoShelter a buyer can dial in their usage to get a quote. While I I think FotoQuote it great I worry that if we all use FotoQuote and ONLY use the middle suggested price, that we would be messing up the average and bringing down the price of usage. I've often thought it would be nice if clients knew where I was getting my usage rate so they could check the rate themselves and 1) know that I'm in line with others. 2) Be able to check the rate themselves when they want to relicense an image (so they don't think I'm gouging them). I love FotoQuote and FotoBiz because they have a range of prices for each use. It’s cool that on PhotoShelter a buyer can dial in their usage to get a quote.

While I I think FotoQuote it great I worry that if we all use FotoQuote and ONLY use the middle suggested price, that we would be messing up the average and bringing down the price of usage.

I’ve often thought it would be nice if clients knew where I was getting my usage rate so they could check the rate themselves and 1) know that I’m in line with others. 2) Be able to check the rate themselves when they want to relicense an image (so they don’t think I’m gouging them).

]]> By: info http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32543 info Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:10:22 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32543 One thing I'd like to make clear is that there is no perfect solution. We'll never get it "right." This is important--if we let things like the fact that there are potentially an infinite number of potential uses and therefore whatever evolves will be imperfect get in our way, we'll never even try. To get to Charlie's point, I think that some sort of calculable system will cover most of these situations. In one of my podcasts I discussed a pricing matrix for situations like these. Perfect? Hell no, but maybe it's a start. -Leslie One thing I’d like to make clear is that there is no perfect solution. We’ll never get it “right.” This is important–if we let things like the fact that there are potentially an infinite number of potential uses and therefore whatever evolves will be imperfect get in our way, we’ll never even try.

To get to Charlie’s point, I think that some sort of calculable system will cover most of these situations. In one of my podcasts I discussed a pricing matrix for situations like these. Perfect? Hell no, but maybe it’s a start.
-Leslie

]]> By: Peter http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32542 Peter Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:07:06 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32542 Over simplifying, I'm sure (because the fees would almost certainly <em>have</em> to vary between different communities, however it seems like a published guidebook that was promoted well enough to the photographers would be all it takes. I mean, you have something as simple as Kelly's Blue Book telling almost everyone (in the US anyway. Not sure what it's like in Canada and elsewhere) what a car is worth. The problem here I think still is competition. With cars, you can go get a nearly identical car from someone else, however with photography, it would be too easy for a photographer to know what the accepted standards are, and go behind the other photographers backs and undercut a little on that end... it's amazing how a client will spend 10 grand on a project, and if you tell them you'll knock $500 off this part of the process, suddenly they feel like they're getting the best deal in the world. Over simplifying, I’m sure (because the fees would almost certainly have to vary between different communities, however it seems like a published guidebook that was promoted well enough to the photographers would be all it takes. I mean, you have something as simple as Kelly’s Blue Book telling almost everyone (in the US anyway. Not sure what it’s like in Canada and elsewhere) what a car is worth. The problem here I think still is competition. With cars, you can go get a nearly identical car from someone else, however with photography, it would be too easy for a photographer to know what the accepted standards are, and go behind the other photographers backs and undercut a little on that end… it’s amazing how a client will spend 10 grand on a project, and if you tell them you’ll knock $500 off this part of the process, suddenly they feel like they’re getting the best deal in the world.

]]> By: Charlie Laumann http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32541 Charlie Laumann Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:02:50 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32541 Excellent idea and I completely agree with it and would support it 100%. But I see several problems. The first is enforcement. If we can't get companies like Countrywide to follow the rules on determining income for potential borrowers (see today's Wall Street Journal) how can this be managed? Another but much larger problem would be establishing rates for every use in every situation. For example two companies want to use a catalog product shot on the internet. Both are targeting the same market, one is a large publicly owned conglomerate, the other is a small family run business with limited funds. How do you charge usage for this? Is it based upon geographic location of the company? What if both are in New York, one has headquarters, the other is run out of a home office. Is it based on company's gross revenues or net before taxes? Home builders that are seeing so much red ink versus the small artist jeweler who is making a small but respectful profit? Now what about the photographer is San Francisco, California, who has a studio as compared to the studio in Richlands, North Carolina, think difference in cost of living. These are the questions that have to be resolved before a standard is determined otherwise it will become as complicated as our tax code. Now think of these questions on a global level. No reason a photographer in China or India couldn't shoot those items, Fedex and UPS ship globally. Since the world has become a global marketplace everyone is now facing similar problem in their industry. Excellent idea and I completely agree with it and would support it 100%. But I see several problems. The first is enforcement. If we can’t get companies like Countrywide to follow the rules on determining income for potential borrowers (see today’s Wall Street Journal) how can this be managed?

Another but much larger problem would be establishing rates for every use in every situation. For example two companies want to use a catalog product shot on the internet. Both are targeting the same market, one is a large publicly owned conglomerate, the other is a small family run business with limited funds. How do you charge usage for this? Is it based upon geographic location of the company? What if both are in New York, one has headquarters, the other is run out of a home office. Is it based on company’s gross revenues or net before taxes? Home builders that are seeing so much red ink versus the small artist jeweler who is making a small but respectful profit? Now what about the photographer is San Francisco, California, who has a studio as compared to the studio in Richlands, North Carolina, think difference in cost of living.

These are the questions that have to be resolved before a standard is determined otherwise it will become as complicated as our tax code.

Now think of these questions on a global level. No reason a photographer in China or India couldn’t shoot those items, Fedex and UPS ship globally.

Since the world has become a global marketplace everyone is now facing similar problem in their industry.

]]> By: Martha Retallick http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2008/04/29/standardized-prices/#comment-32538 Martha Retallick Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:17:26 +0000 http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/?p=409#comment-32538 Sounds good to me. Where do I join this "organization that can't be an organization" due to the price-fixing legalities? Sounds good to me. Where do I join this “organization that can’t be an organization” due to the price-fixing legalities?

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